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To promote Greater Bunbury's regional advantage and support the necessary conditions for sustained investment, growth and employment generation.
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Comment 1 30 Jan 2012, 9:54 AM
Congratulations to all staff and fellow Councillors in delivering the on line community forum project, I look forward to community participation and reading the comments. Special thanks to Stephanie Addison-Brown, Director Community Customer Services and the CEO Mr Andrew Brien. Job well done :)))
Comment 2 30 Jan 2012, 1:02 PM
A key economic priority for the future must be to keep and attract young people. We need to develop industries that are unique and expand our economic base. I'd like to see tourism, green, IT and high tech industries examined and opportunities explored.
Comment 3 30 Jan 2012, 7:13 PM
Infrastructure is the key to economic growth. Provide the infrastructure and people will come. It is important, however, that the building of Bunbury to be the Capital of the South West will require Taxpayer funding. Bunbury's small Ratepayer base can only really afford to pay for maintenance & operational costs. Capital works need to be funded externally by private corporations or State & Federal Governments.
Comment 3.1 10 Feb 2012, 12:56 PM
...which emphasises the need for the City of Greater Bunbury. If the Greater Bunbury Region is to thrive and grow it needs a single vision, sadly currently blurred by hidebound parochialism. Some visionary thinking about economic growth is required that does not rely on the cargo cult notion that new infrastructure projects every other year will sustain our prosperity. I welcome the transition argument.
Comment 3.1.1 15 Feb 2012, 10:07 AM
Our economy needs to concentrate on being a sustainable one and not one of continual growth...Dick Smith has been talking about this recently and the government spokesperson agreed but says slowing down the mentality of continual growth is going to take a long time and maybe too long.
Comment 4 30 Jan 2012, 8:00 PM
We should ensure that educational opportunities that support our economy are available so that we do not loose young people.
Comment 5 31 Jan 2012, 11:34 AM
Focus on youth by supporting the concept of Bunbury being a University town. That is, support and promote the university as much as possible. Look at how university towns around the world succeed and replicate their strategies.
Comment 5.1 8 Feb 2012, 3:46 PM
I couldn't agree more. Fremantle Is a perfect example of a university town. It is a vibrant place to be. Lots of events be they jazz, festivals, theatre. Lots of energy and excitement. The crazy streets and ad hoc buildings lends itself to the mix.
What do we need to do to emulate Fremantle?
We have just demolished the old st John of gods hospital. That could have been tarted up and have been the start of a faculty building.
That doesn't mean the end. We need to get ideas on how it will work in Bunbury because retail alone in the CBD isn't going to be the panacea as we drift towards 2030.
Comment 5.2 15 Feb 2012, 10:01 AM
Absolutely...by placing University housing within the CBD will bring life to the area in the evening hence bringing residents/families into the city at night as well (Jan Gehl). Buses that run regularly would be needed and they do not need to be those huge buses which are mostly empty..maybe City Cats that do the route CBD, back beach, Forum, University, Hospital etc etc...better still what about a monorail....
Comment 5.2.1 28 Mar 2012, 10:35 PM
Great idea... putting university housing in CBD.. bring more life to our very dead inner city... And yes a mono rail. I totally recommend connecting Bunbury with Mandurah rail or a direct rail to Perth.
Comment 5.2.1.1 29 Mar 2012, 7:46 AM
The Commercial Business District (CBD) should be transfrormed into Bunbury Cultural District...with University housing...small art galleries, music, street performance and retail that thrives. Shopping is changing and those who ty to cling onto how retail has been will not be successful.
Comment 6 3 Feb 2012, 2:45 PM
MESSAGE TO CITY OF BUNBURY MAYOR, COUNCILLORS AND ADMIN STAFF
HERE WE GO AGAIN.
ANOTHER SURVEY. MORE WASTE OF TAXPAYERS MONEY.
WHAT BUNBURY NEEDS IS ACTION....ACTION....ACTION
OVER ONE MILLION DOLLARS WAS SPENT BY CITY OF BUNBURY ON THE CITY VISION PROJECT NOT SO LONG AGO AND NOOOOOO ACTION HAS BEEN TAKEN. NOW WE ARE GOING BACK TO THE PUBLIC WITH MORE SURVEYS AND MORE QUESTIONS.
PLEAAAAAAAAAASE. CAN SOMEONE TAKE SOME STRONG LEADERShip AND GO BACK TO THE CITY VISION PROJECT WHERE ALL THESE QUSTIONS WERE ANSWERED BY THE COMMUNTY OF BUNBURY AND LET'S GET SOME ACTION HAPPENING.
Bunbury 2030 Comment 6.1 Project Team 6 Feb 2012, 2:17 PM
Thank you for your comments.
The City of Bunbury is starting a new community engagement project as part of the new State Government legislative requirements. Every local government in WA has to develop a Community Strategic Plan, which will help us identify the community's priorites for the next ten years. To get a good idea of the priorities of Bunbury residents, we need to look into new and easy ways of engaging with the community, and this online forum is one such way.
As you may have noticed, the four topics have been taken directly from City Vision. Council certainly still sees value in the City Vision document, however the City Vision Action Plan was compiled in 2007, and we feel the community’s priorities will have changed since then.
We encourage you to post any helpful feedback and suggestions under the relevant topics, so we can get a full picture of how Bunbury residents would like to see their City by 2030.
Comment 6.2 28 Mar 2012, 10:37 PM
BUNBURY CEO AND HIS TEAM OF MERRY MEN & WOMEN NEED TO GET WITH THE PROGRAMME. LISTEN UP CITY OF BUNBURY... THIS FORUM WILL TELL YOU WHAT IS NEEDED!!! HOW COME BUSSELTON IS GETTING A MAKE OVER??? HEY????
Comment 7 8 Feb 2012, 8:15 PM
Bunbury has amazing natural features, and we are all very lucky to live along this stretch of the coast. The Back Beach is prime real estate that Perth people would pay through the nose to own. Yet there is hardly anything along there. Obviousy much of Ocean Drive is residential development, but I call on the Council to support new initiatives and development, and not be afraid of upsetting a couple of residents. We know that you can never please everyone, but unless Council make some tricky calls, BUnbury cant progress. BUnbury residents are crying out for ome decent venues and businesses - whether that be multinational chains in the CBD, or hotels, restaurants and 'wine bar' style venues along back beach, we need to encourage these businesses to invest in BUnbury. Every time an exciting or new initiative comes along, there is always a reason not to progress, fir example with the new Art Gallery Facility that was in the papers. I'm not naive, I'm understand the costs involved are probably far beyond sustainable, but our approach to attracting quality businesses leaves much to be desired.
Comment 7.1 15 Feb 2012, 10:05 AM
No commercial business should be on our waterfront...look at Marlstron Hill...most of the commercial businesses have covered their windows...hospitality only and then public open space so everyone can access it.
Comment 7.1.1 28 Mar 2012, 10:39 PM
AGREED... WATERFRONTS IS ABOUT RETAIL, SHOPPING, ENTERTAINMENT. WE NEED TO GET RID OF THAT OUTER HARBOUR AND GET THAT WATERFRONT PROJECT UNDERWAY... WHATS UP WITH THIS TOWN... OOOPS ITS A CITY... WELL START ACTING LIKE ONE.
PERTH IS GETTING A NEW WATER FRONT.... WELL BUNBURY NEEDS ONE TOO. GERALDTON GOT ONE AND BUSSELTON IS MORE THAN HALF WAY AND LEAST WE FORGET MANDURAH IS A WORLD CLASS MARINA
LETS GO ONE BETTER BUNBURY....
Comment 8 15 Feb 2012, 10:03 AM
Monorail meets fast train from Perth just North of Bunbury...goes along Koombana (no fences needed/no views disturned) into the CDB, then along the back beach, hospital, university, shopping centre...
Comment 8.1 28 Mar 2012, 10:42 PM
YES YES YES.... HAVING LIVED OVERSEAS IS USA AND UK THEY ALL HAVE A GREAT RAIL NET WORK ACROSS THEIR WHOLE COUNTRY... I UNDERSTAND WA IS A VAST PLACE WITH NOT ALOT OF NOTHING IN SOME PLACES BUT IN THE SW HUB WE ARE CONNECTED AND HAVING A FAST TRAIN THAT CONNECTS US TO PERTH MANDURAH, BUNBURY, BUSSELTON MARGARET RIVER WOULD BE GREAT. WE WOULDNT NEED AN INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT THEN IN BUSSELTON.
Comment 8.2 5 Apr 2012, 7:40 PM
At the moment the train has become disjointed with the City of Bunbury. It is not welcoming and difficult to get the the centre of town when you do come. Also the train service to Perth and from Perth is not conducive for someone who is coming down just for a day trip and to sight see. Definately need to upgrade this service. Also businesses are leaving the middle of town leaving emptly shops. Not so good when you are a tourist trying to do some shopping. Also lots of shops at The Forum but little atmosphere compared with what could be a lovely experience in the middle of town for tourists. Need to use the old St John's Hospital site to bring more vibrancy into the City Centre using high rise with a coffee shop/ restaurant etc with views over the city.
Comment 9 27 Feb 2012, 11:55 AM
Bunbury has so much potential. We are involved in landscape architecture and interior design in the corporate sector of the SW, based in Bunbury. Most community members we speak to have a very positive attitude towards the growth and changes happening in and around our City and we strongly believe with clever design, listening to the community whilst recognising the importance of economic growth, Bunbury can achieve the recognition it so deserves as an exciting investment hub with many employment opportunites.
Promoting tourism, prioritising important infrastructure, respecting and enhancing our natural environment and encouraging good sustainanble working relationships are all key factors to the success of our City's economic growth.
We are so lucky to be in a unique position where we can influence our future, we can mould the new design elements to suit our lifestyle, we can create an exciting future for generations to come that everyone can be proud of.
Let's not stuff it up!
Comment 10 8 Mar 2012, 9:32 PM
To improve the economy, we need to attract more tourists to the area by having attractions such as the proposed water park and the expansion of the dolphin discovery center. The motto 'refreshingly close' is appalling! It basically tells tourists that there is nothing to do here but you can go to other places with more to offer - why wouldn't they stay in the desired destination rather than 'close' to it?
Comment 10.1 24 Mar 2012, 11:56 AM
Totally agree that the phrase "refreshinglfy close" is appalling ............ please come up with something new and more positive to Bunbury itself .......... nothing wrong with City of 3 Waters ....... it was good, not really exciting, but it did make you want to say 'what 3 waters" and then go and visit. The 'waters' around Bunbury are totally neglected when it comes to amenities and public use. Went to the Back Beach yesterday to Extensions Cafe for afternoon tea - it was closed. Absolutly nowhere else to get food or drink. This monopoly should certainly stop !
Comment 10.1.1 28 Mar 2012, 10:44 PM
WE NEED TO ATTRACT MORE PEOPLE TO BUNBURY TO LIVE OTHERWISE THE RESTAURANTS AND ENTERTAINMENT DONT HAPPEN. MY HUBBIE AND I WENT OUT FOR A MEAL LAST NIGHT AND THREE RESTAURANTS TURNED US AWAY BECAUSE THEY WERE CLOSING. IT WAS 8PM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WE NEED THE WATERFRONT PROJECT AND A BEAUTIFUL ATTRACTIVE ENTRANCE TO BUNBURY... HAVENT YOU NOTICED THERE ARE ALWAYS ROAD WORKS....
Comment 11 8 Mar 2012, 9:36 PM
This is a great community event. Congratulations to the organisers.
Bunbury can be a great city if the vision is allowed to develop. The state and the region have benefited from the resources boom. All booms will bust so it is important to take advantage of the money flowing into the region. The government is also feeling generous with the royalties for regions so again, the best use of it must be made.
1. The Port
The port must be expanded to accomodate more shipping. This will attract foreign investment and create employment well into the future. The port could become a place more…
Comment 11.1 29 Mar 2012, 10:40 PM
If you were to run for the Mayors position I would seriously vote for you Rob!!! Infact I think you need to apply for the CEO's position at City of Bunbury. Your vision of Bunbury has been written wiht everything that will make the City of Bunbury thrieving metropolis.
Comment 12 10 Mar 2012, 9:31 AM
Young people are leaving town and never coming back - we need at least another university here, if not 2. University brings more things to do, other than just nightclubbing, for those young adults who prefer other methods of social interaction.
Encouraging new tech businesses into Bunbury - we are woefully deficient in all areas of business relating to IT.
With our beautiful natural assets of waterways and oceans, we are totally ignoring our tourism potential and sending the tourists off down the coast - we have got MORE than Margaret River!
Encouraging large city-style shops into our shopping centres will also be a boost to tourism - the Bunbury Forum is getting close, but still needs more places (for example) to buy kids clothes and toys, sporting goods, etc.
Comment 13 11 Mar 2012, 4:01 PM
Everybody is obligated to compromise ever since Bob Hawke made it fashionable in the 1980’s. If the council were to commit to free parking days i.e. Tuesday & Saturday morning once the parking system is paid for; then I am sure that people would see it as an act of good faith on the council’s part and return to patronise the CDB. Besides the magic word free would attract like bees to a honey pot.
Regards,
John Bain
South Bunbury
Comment 14 14 Mar 2012, 1:00 PM
Adding to Witchcliffes comments re Bunbury becoming a Univeristy Town. ECU was asked to consider the recently demolished St John of Gods Hospital as a faculty. The offer was declined. Unfortunately it isnt buildings that is needed, due mainly to "on-line" tutorials. There is the need for accommodation and resources for the practical training which is at the current site. The picture I had envisaged of young uni students frequenting coffee lounges within the CBD disappeared with the rubble from the old St JOG hospital.
What else will attract a crowd to the CBD?
Attracting more Cruise ships.
Marinas capable of accommodating visiting boaties.
High density living in the CBD.
Focus on being the convention centre of the south west
Comment 15 14 Mar 2012, 11:47 PM
I think there is a need to for more high density housing in the CBD. This may liven up the empty streets during the weekends and holidays and provide more support for businesses in the city centre.
There is also a need to bring the train station back into the city centre and connect the track (electrified) to Mandurah, whether a spur is put in to meet the existing track at Waroona for example, or a new line is installed down the Forrest highway, or both. A fast low cost electric train service will allow students to live in Bunbury and study in Perth.
A Museum built somewhere on the waterfront or on the rebuilt timber jetty is much needed.
We should focus on preserving and promoting our history (Port City) to develop a greater sense of identity.
Comment 16 19 Mar 2012, 8:40 AM
Bunbury has great economic growth potential – make it happen. Business owners in the region should recognise their ability to take the future in their own hands and show confidence and enthusiasm in their operations. Use initatives such as Bunbury 2030 to voice your opinion and create a positive morale among business owners in this, at times, challenging economic climate. Work in alliances to create the future.
Comment 17 21 Mar 2012, 4:42 PM
We need to hold on to the values that bunbury has in order to not affect the lifestyle that has encouraged so many people to migrate here. But we also need to invest in education and environmentably sustainable living. We must also incorporate leading edge technology and make internet in bunbury and surounding areas a free wifi hotspot. this will open up a huge number of oportunities for people to get out there on the web and real life and express themselves. There is also a huge oportunity for technological advancements.
But all of this must be done sustainably without hurting the environment. The city should invest in solar, wind and tidal power and have a huge park half the size of central park in new york. Together we can set an example for the rest of the world and live life with great technology sustainably
Comment 18 23 Mar 2012, 7:49 AM
Bunbury is a Port City, the lack of facilities for tourist ships is a lost opportunity. Knock over the old jetty, get rid of the industry in the outer harbour and provide an entrance from the sea that makes visitors welcome. The Marlston development should be seen as stage one. The oil tanks, waste water and rail where moved out and look at what we have now fantastic, let’s get a move on with stage two.
Comment 18.1 24 Mar 2012, 12:01 PM
I don't agree that the Marlston Hill development proved it's worth - yes, the water front did - good place to visit and buy stuff etc - good food/drink outlets, but it has no "fun" element ...... the actual Hill is just housing !!
Comment 19 27 Mar 2012, 11:06 AM
Attracting new business for sustained investment- Commit to green, environmentally conscious building and business operating guidelines. Business will not set up unless they have security in knowing the framework in which they are operating.
Roads - yes - please fix up the roads. Getting around Bunbury is a nightmare and many businesses are poorly placed in terms of access and parking. Also, please lower the speed limit around Bunbury environments. I have seen too many near misses with idiots driving way too fast and running red lights.
Tertiary education - please attract courses outside teaching, nursing and trades. More professional training needed - e.g. law and engineering.
Comment 20 28 Mar 2012, 2:18 PM
We need to start a revolution in the Bunbury area where industry is encouraged to come and settle where the industrial area’s are encouraged to be developed. The beautiful coast line needs to be designed and developed to attract the holiday makers from big city Perth. Bunbury is the largest population area outside Perth in WA and yet we are nowhere to be seen on the nation board band network. I love Bunbury but unless change starts very soon we will be left behind as a backwater and we will have to watch the young members of the community leave and the development money go elsewhere.
Comment 21 28 Mar 2012, 10:27 PM
BUNBURY CITY NEEDS TO TAKE SERIOUS ACTON!
As a new person to Bunbury who has bought a house here I am gobsmacked at how dead the city actually is. By Day this town is awesome but at night its dead. I agree with one of the previous comments we need serious action. Here's what I propose;
1. REMOVE CITY CENTRE PAID PARKING - ITS A COMPLETE WASTE OF MONEY FOR REGIONAL BUNBURY. WORKS IN PERTH BUT NOT HERE.
2. IMPROVE SMALL BUSINESS COMMUNITY IN CITY CENTRE. EVERY 2ND SHOP IS CLOSING DOWN, WHY????
3. GET MORE CRUISE SHIPS STOPPING AT BUNBURY - WE'RE GOING more…
Comment 22 28 Mar 2012, 10:52 PM
BUNBURY CEO AND HIS TEAM IS "THE WIZARD OF OZ"
THE CEO NEEDS AND THE MAYOR NEED TO BUTT HEADS AND START READING THESE COMMENTS. PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE IS SAYING THE SAME THING...
MY QUESTION TO THE CEO AND MAYOR IS THIS;
1. WHY IS BUSSELTON GETTING A MAKE OVER?
2. WHY HAS IT TAKEN SO LONG FOR BUNBURY TO REMOVE ITSELF FROM THE OLD SCHOOL FISHING PORT TOWN IT USED TO BE TO A MODERN VIBRANT REGIONAL CITY?
3. GET COLIN BARNETT TO INVEST IN OUR TOWN?
4. LETS PUT A HIGH SPEED TRAIN FROM BUNBURY TO PERTH?
5. GET THE WATERFRONT PROJECT HAPPENING!
Comment 23 29 Mar 2012, 7:52 AM
The Commercial Business District (CBD) should be transfrormed into Bunbury Cultural District...with University housing...small art galleries, music, street performance and retail that happens to thrive. Shopping is changing and those who try to cling onto how retail has been will not be successful.
Industry is unsightly and destructive to the environment. Bunbury has always been confused about its identity...expanding the Port will jeopardise the Natural Environment, it will happen anyway. Ships anchoring causes destruction of the sea bed, stockpile coal to be exported (coal dust floating around Bunbury), coffee shops that over look the Port...
Bunbury is in a unique position to develop in a sustainable manner but will it?
Comment 23.1 29 Mar 2012, 10:50 PM
I dont agree with you Ammadi. Bunbury is a port town and we need to upgrade it asap to a more modern post. We cannot have cargo liners waiting out at sea. If you go to back beach you will always see 6-8 ships waiting to come in. We need the inner harbour port upgrade to happen asap. Once that is done we can get on with the outer harbour waterfront development.
http://www.landcorp.com.au/project/bunburywaterfront
And one more thing these types of projects do no go ahead with out the environment approval. If anything ports attract marine life. Just look at fremantle.... its a thriving port town.
Comment 23.1.1 30 Mar 2012, 8:06 AM
Fremantle port does not export raw stockpiled resources...the Port has the outer harbour leased until 2018 or close to that regardless of what happens at the Inner Harbour...wood chips stockpiled and now coal is proposed at 200 million tonnes a year...stockpiled....the Environmental reports Lanco completed for the Environment Dept state that coal dust is likely to be above acceptable levels and affect surrounding residential areas as well as the noise when loading ships will highly likely do...with the past record of the Environment Dept they will allow this exportation to happen with strict guidelines and when these guidelines are not met...what then...this is a raw resource state and the Environment dept leans to supporting that at the expense of the environment.
Yes Bunbury is a Port City...but stockpile...Would you say a modern port allows stockpiling of raw resources on the waterfront of a City...The Port provides very little jobs in the community...foreign companies own the mines...employ a few people...then the resources are exported to foreign countries...very little benefit to Australia apart from a few jobs and the trashing of our environment...(sorry bit side tracked)...
Comment 24 1 Apr 2012, 5:22 PM
We are so fortunate to live in such a clean and safe city, many would be jealous of the coast line we have to offer. Unfortunately we don't harness these assets and no-one knows we have them here! We have 1 eating venue on the back beach (Ex-tensions) which needs a serious renovation. Hungry Hollow is great for 20 somethings but besides this, there is nothing for families or a crowd wanting more than a pool table and a beer. There should be zoning provided to create more opportunities for shops and eating venues along the back beach coastline so more…
Comment 25 4 Apr 2012, 2:12 PM
As a young adult I would have to say that Bunbury is incredibly unattractive place to live at the moment, but it also has incredible opportunity. Most of my peers leave Bunbury at the first opportunity they get because it lacks tertiary education opportunities and white collar jobs. It also has a boring monoculture nightlife that is solely focused on getting wasted.
Bunbury needs to foster a creative culture that attracts young people to the region.
My recommendations do this are:
Increased support and promotion for local artists, musicians and writers
Encourage and support diversity in Bunbury's nightlife (wine bars, live music venues etc)
Increased support and promotion for innovative local businesses -establishment of a business incubator to assist local entrepreneurs for example.
Rezoning along the Back Beach to allow for more commercial developments.
Development of a marina, or at least improved boat access and service infrastructure, so that we can cater to cruising vessels and competitive sailors that pass Bunbury by in favour of Geographe marina.
Installation of artificial surf reefs along the Back Beach strip to increase the Cities attractiveness to creative professionals and and protect the beach from winter swell energy.
Comment 26 10 Apr 2012, 1:05 PM
Well done to those who initiated this however I agree with "Stop surveys we need action"..lets have something done this time. Bunbury has such great potential but it seems that the people who are leading us lack vision or are too lazy to do what needs to be done.
Let's get the train back into the city centre instead of dropping people out in the wilderness. Lets have more advanced education (universities and training centres) and industry for the young so that they don't have to go to Perth and survive on two minute noodles, while paying rent to get an more…
Comment 27 23 Apr 2012, 4:07 PM
I agree with most of the comments on here so far about getting more educational opporunities into the city, both in terms of schools and definitely Universities!!!
Also with the sentiment that it's a City that thinks like ea Town. It is a City, and the key to getting the night life in Bunbury more invigorated is to get more people into the CBD at night. At the moment, unless you are going there specifically for an occasion (e.g. movies/clubbing), you don't go near the CBD at night. High Rise development should be permitted in the CBD boundaries and in more…
Comment 28 25 Apr 2012, 9:47 AM
I have grown up in Perth and have also lived in a few different areas within WA. When we first moved to Bunbury a couple of years ago, we were really surprised about how attractive Bunbury was, because we had mostly just bypassed Bunbury on our way to places further south. We felt it was a hidden gem in terms of its natural assets, and it was surprising that it wasn't more well known to people (i.e. our family and friends) in Perth. We were also surprised by how many services Bunbury had, in terms of shops and businesses, and more…
Comment 29 29 Apr 2012, 9:32 AM
Tourism (Destination) Strategy 2009-2014 is OUT OF DATE!!!
And needs to be reviewed for the next 10 years taking into consideration all the comments made by rate payers in Bunbury.
This proposed Tourism Strategy for Bunbury is: A Vision for Tourism
“As the major regional city for the South West of Western Australia, Bunbury will continue contributing to the economic wellbeing of the region through a sustained commitment to tourism. It will aspire to promote the region’s diversity, attractions and activities to enhance the visitor experience while embracing the city’s lifestyle and culture.”
I wish to view the City of Bunbury Tourism Strategy 2009-2014 - click link: http://www.bunbury.wa.gov.au/index.php?pageId=788
Comment 30 1 May 2012, 9:35 PM
Ok, Ok.
where to start?
I totally agree with most the comments in the thread.
"Dublingirl" you know whats up.
I feel Bunbury has got to a point where it is getting a little too big for its boots.
We ARE a Small coastal town, and we should embrace this. After all that's what we love about the place, and if we didn't love it we wouldn't live here.
- CBD parking has killed the economic growth, and the vibrancy of Vitoria Street. Resolution - either remove meter's (that wont happen with current council in place, as meters & fines makes them money; and more…
